Heavier Weights vs more reps

[Andy]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the optimum routine to build size? I'm undecided between 4-5 sets 8-10 reps or 6+ sets at 5 or so reps. I tend to train arms, chest, back/abs & shoulders /legs with at least one compound move per session. I've tried an upper/lower split but couldn't find a routine I was comfortable with. Any ideas greatly appreciated.

[Jayuk]

If you can do more than about 7reps comfortably then your not longer building strength, your increasing muscular endurance.

To build size you should be looking to put as much tension on the muscles as possible (heaviest weight you are comfortable with) in the shortest space of time e.g 5sets of 5reps (not including warm up sets)

What day you do each Group is mostly down to personal preference, but id try to keep a day between your arm day and legs day (you should be doin enough to feel too trashed a day after to workout])

[2010Muscle]

i like to vary it.

for example i'd to 3x5 heavy reps on the flat dumbell bench.

then i'd do 3x8-10 reps with moderate weights on the incline barbell.

[Andy]

Thanks Guys. I think the consensus is heavier equals bigger. I like the idea of mixing the two up on different exercises. This should give me a balance between strength and stamina. Any useful tips on shoulder moves? I'm 6'1" and shoulders are always my least favourite, therefore most underworked muscle. My arm span stops me from lifting heavy weights without uncomfortable pain!

[TJLEE]

I have just discovered TRIPLE LATERALS, for me it gives an awesome pump and does not require heavy weights.
Using low weight dumb bells, start with backs of your hands facing out (palms towards your body) and keeping the arms straight, lift dumbells until up to horizontal. Do this for 10 reps.
Then immediately turn your hands the opposite way so back of your hands now face towards your body and repeat with straight arms to horizontal, again for 10 reps.
Then immediately into convential lateral raises with palms facing in and really squeeze shoulders at the top, again for 10 reps.
10 x 10 x 10 reps, do this for 4 sets and you will feel it.

[Andy]

Sounds good, thanks. It's shoulders tonight, so will give it a try. I'll let you know how I get on. :D

[GoodingPT]

Hi,

just thought I'd put in my 2 pence worth. Parts of the above are true and others slightly misguided. Its right to vary it and having a mixture of heavy and light workouts is a great way to vary and provoke progression esp if at a plateau. BUT.......heavier does not mean bigger size. Working upto 5 reps will increase strength but wont provide as much hypertrophy (size gains). Increase size is achieved at between 8-12 reps. Endurance will be 12-20, so if you can achieve 12 reps on a set up the weight.

Hope that helps, I dont claim to know it all but I do know that :0)

[-AC-]

agree with the above. varying your rep ranges is the key to growth. low reps will increase strength but not as good for hypertrophy. keep your muscles guessing. a workout of 20 rep squats every once in a while can do you a lot of good.

[GoodingPT]

Nasty but yeah really good. Just come off an alternating 4 day split. Heavy push 5 x 5, Heavy Pull 5 x 5, light push 3 x 15 and light pull 3 x 15. only did for 4 weeks as pretty aggressive but was a nice change. We gen change our progs every 6 weeks. Variety is key.

[Andy]

I have always tended to keep to a routine for about 8-10 weeks. You think this is too long then? I used to work on the higher rep ranges, but after trying pyramid sets for a while and seeing good returns I went on to 4-5 sets of max 8 reps and had even better results. Do you think this was more to do with a change of routine/focus rather than the type of routine?

[GoodingPT]

8-10 weeks is fine, plateau generally wont kick in til about week 12. There is no hard and fast rule though, you need to give the prog time to have an effect, i.e 6 weeks minimum but as soon as you become either physically, menatally fatigued with your current prog, bored of it or stop seeing progression then mix it up. I prob change rep ranges every 3 months, just to do something my body isnt used to, gen 4 x 8-12, prev done 5 x 5, 4 x 6-12, 3 x 15, also depends on goals.

So it could have been reps ranges, could have been a change of prog or the exercises! just make sure you got plenty of compund exercises to promote max growth and increase testosterone levels.......hope that helps

[Andy]

Thanks, i'll keep it varied and up the reps a little. Did Deadlifts today, 4 sets of 12 to start and i'm ready for my 8 hrs kip! :)

[-AC-]

12 reps on deadlift. ouch. i never dare do more than 5 :s

[JoshLarge]

I see deadlifts as a major compound movement, and reckon they should generally be kept to low-mid reps 3-8 to allow for max strength and growth.

[2010Muscle]

same here,

prefer to leave deads to 5-6 reps.

warmup deads-8-12 reps

[Andy]

No pain, no gain! It certainly fired me up for an hour.

[GoodingPT]

I'd agree on deads, keep em low, 8 reps max is where i go to

[PaulJ]

is there any point in increasing the weight in your 3 sets or keeping to the heavier weight for the 3 sets? eg:

1st set on the bench -

3x 10 reps 40kg

2nd Set -

3x reps 45kg

3rd set -

3x 5 reps 50kg

or would you stick with 3 sets of 5x 50kg?

[JoshLarge]

All depends on your goals...is it size or strength your after?

[-AC-]

as josh says if you are trianing for strength stick to maximum weight for 3-5 reps. if its size then vary it from 12 down to 6-8 reps.

[Braveheart]

I have to say I disagree with an earlier post made in here, which said strength doesn't mean size, this isn't necessarily true. Training for strength (1-5 reps) will be accompanied with a change in muscle size, although not as much change in size as lifting the weight for a little longer (6/8-12).

As for sticking to a weight or increasing it, as far as getting bigger quicker is concerned, I find it is much easier to track if you preform a warm-up set with a light weight, then use a working set (60-80% 1RM) which you can do for at least 6-8 reps. If you can preform this weight for 12 or more reps, either next week you add more weight or add more weight for the remaining sets. If you can't do 12 or more reps great, this means you're lifting heavy enough. For example say you could only lift the weight for 7 reps, next week you would aim for at least 8 reps.

This is simple progressive overload.

[-AC-]

good post but i think that strength doesnt necessarily mean size. when you first start trianing or if you have a poor diet you can increase strength by learning to recruit more muscle fibres, improving form, or simply through natural adaptation to increased load. increased muscle mass requires calorie surplus dieting and correct nutrient intake. so to a degree you can increase strength without muscle mass but as a general rule training for strength will induce hypertrophy either way, its just that diet makes more of a difference on muscle mass than it does on strength.

in my opinion.

[johnnyboy]

If in doubt German Volume Training has always been a staple back up routine for gaining size, either 10 sets by 10 reps or 10 x 5 reps. or 5 x 5 for gaining muscle 5-8 reps is good.

[CTP]

I used German Volume Training Last week in order to break a plateau I had hit having read an interesting article a few months back in either Flex or M+F ..........

Not sure I could do it ona weekly basis though

[Chris445]

Strength 5-8 reps

muscle size - 8-12 reps

[CTP]

Repped ........

[-AC-]

Strength 5-8 reps

muscle size - 8-12 reps

not as black and white as that im afraid.

calorie surplus diet - size

training of any kind - strength


im pretty sure that if i did 8 reps at a constantly progressing weight eventually i would have a pretty good 1RM.

[DrPR]

I've tried a routine called German Volume Training which is based on a 10 sets of 10 routine. It's quite tedious but gets results fairly quickly in terms of size. Its best to read up on the physiology of why it works.

[murph]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the optimum routine to build size? I'm undecided between 4-5 sets 8-10 reps or 6+ sets at 5 or so reps. I tend to train arms, chest, back/abs & shoulders /legs with at least one compound move per session. I've tried an upper/lower split but couldn't find a routine I was comfortable with. Any ideas greatly appreciated.
There will be no right or wrong answer to this thread- it's completely dependent on the individual.
Although the generally agreed ranges for hypertrophy are slightly higher reps (8-12) where you achieve local muscular failure, it is never that black and White as AC has already stated. You have to consider a number of factors and then it depends on what phase of training you are in.
So in answer to the post ... There is no one optimum routine... There is however a forum where you can post a load of information about your self and your goals and then you will get lots of suggestions and advice to design the optimum routine for YOU!!

[Papa Lazarou]

As per AC. There was an article I read recently that also recommends for muscular size, 20-30 reps. Hell, on my leg press I do 80 rep presses and my legs when cut look like this:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs670.snc4/61000_429305111610_638346610_5554269_2201613_n.jpg

Surely the comments made about low reps being needed are shown to be wrong? :D

Simply IMO its down to periodisation. If you can keep overloading yourself in different ways over the year you will grow. I'm just about about to do something down the lines of Y3T training, which is 2 weeks of hight rep weights, 2 of medium and 2 of high weight low reps (3-6). Overload your muscles and they will grow, allow them to become used to the weight you lift, they will stagnate.

[numerouno]

Damn thats a pair of legs!

[murph]

As per AC. There was an article I read recently that also recommends for muscular size, 20-30 reps. Hell, on my leg press I do 80 rep presses and my legs when cut look

Surely the comments made about low reps being needed are shown to be wrong? :D

Simply IMO its down to periodisation. If you can keep overloading yourself in different ways over the year you will grow. I'm just about about to do something down the lines of Y3T training, which is 2 weeks of hight rep weights, 2 of medium and 2 of high weight low reps (3-6). Overload your muscles and they will grow, allow them to become used to the weight you lift, they will stagnate.

Hmmm periodistion?...!... Isn't there an awesome thread on here somewhere about that?!
By the way I left out super high rep work as I think its more appropriate for advanced lifters such as yourself :)

[Papa Lazarou]

Indeed Murph and i'd fully agree with what you suggest. Indeed, in this months Flex there is also an article on periodistion which explains the science in quite some detail, rather like murphs article. Both fantastic pieces and being that murph is physio (thats right?) i'd listen to his words. Murph knows his beans!

Edit

Forgot to say, IMO it works as the body looks for ways of cheating and taking the quickest way to do ANYTHING. Think about picking things up and carrying them. Most people will try to carry as much as possible at once even if its easier to take in 2 to 3 loads. Why? Because its quicker. Hell, picking up a pen, you'll stick your arm straight out in front of you because your brain has predetermined the best way and quickest way to lift it with minimal effort, to conserve energy and calories burnt.

So taking the idea one step further and moving it to weights - If you keep doing the same lift, your body looks for the best way to lift a weight and finds ways of cheating the weight up. Vary it, vary the loads and reps and your body and mind will take longer to work out the best way and by the time it does, you are lifting in a different way.

Sounds simple but when you think about it, its true.